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Poor Old Spike

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Human tank driver and gunner must work together!
Untrained human gunners in my tank have got us both killed in multiplayer more than once, so hopefully they'll see this tutorial and get on the ball..[wink]
First, the WRONG way because the gunner isn't working with the driver-
I'm driving my T-34 merrily along in the direction of the arrow and am in 3rd person external view so that I can pan around looking for bad guys and bingo! I spot a Pz IV (circled), but my gunner is panning all over the place with his gun and hasn't seen it! 



This is what the gunner is seeing because he's pointing his gun off to the right somewhere!-

 

I jam on the brakes and swing the T-34 hard left to point our thick front armour at the Pz IV but my dozy gunner is still pointing the gun into nowhere!
I try typing "Panzer to our front!" and hope he sees the message, but if he can't understand english we're up shite creek, and even Teamspeak wouldn't help if he doesn't understand english.
So all I can hope is that he eventually swings the gun to the front and sees the panzer and fires, before it fires at us!

 

And now the RIGHT way to do driver/gunner cooperation-
We're trundling along like before, but this time the gunner is correctly pointing his gun straight ahead and keeping it there, leaving his eyeballs free to go to 3rd person view like me so that we can both pan around looking for bad guys- 

 

I spot the panzer, jam on the brakes and swing hard left to face it, and because the gun was pointing forward it automatically swings with the tank-

 

Now all the gunner has to do is go to the gunsight and he should see the enemy tank smack in his sights and begin blasting it..[smile]


Summary: if you're the gunner, point it forward and leave it there so that you can go to 3rd person and look around.
If the driver spots a target before you do, you'll know it because he'll slam on the brakes and point the tank at it, so dive to the gun and start shooting.
But if you spot the target before he does, dive for the gun and begin swivelling it towards the target and the driver will see the gun moving and will brake and pivot to where you're pointing the gun.

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GbfrKeup

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Reply with quote  #2 
Chat wouldn't  do anything because I'm pretty sure you've got a bot in your gunner's seat, sometimes the A.I. has a hard time doing simple things.  The best bet then is to just hop in the gunner's seat yourself and blast away.
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Poor Old Spike

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Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GbfrKeup
Chat wouldn't  do anything because I'm pretty sure you've got a bot in your gunner's seat, sometimes the A.I. has a hard time doing simple things.  The best bet then is to just hop in the gunner's seat yourself and blast away.


Haha sometimes I think a bot gunner would perform better than some of the untrained human gunners i've been lumbered with..
And yes, I often drive and fire the gun myself rather than risk a raw noob climbing aboard!
The tutorial is for when a human climbs into your tank and takes the gunner position, it often happens in multiplayer, I don't mind if they know what they're doing, but often they're inexperienced. For example when I was driver in one game I kept setting up my human gunner for dream shots against enemy tanks but he only fired the MG, obviously he didn't know that key 'F' switches to the main gun and didn't see me frantically typing "key F for main gun! key F for main gun!!!"

 
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Santa Six

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Reply with quote  #4 
Standard protocol, I like it. Add the use of the vehicle channel in side chat.
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Poor Old Spike

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Reply with quote  #5 

IF YOU'VE GOT THE SHOT, TAKE IT!
More gunnery notes for newcomers.
If you're lucky enough to catch an enemy tank in your sights, don't waste time fiddling with your sights adjustment keys (PgUp and PgDown), just let fly while you still can!
In this test setup this is the T-34/76 gunsight view, it's notorious for firing low, so at longish range you have to aim the crosshairs above the target like this and fire...



Sparks indicate a hit..



...and if you're lucky a fireball confirms it. (It took about 6 hits before it blew up)

Note:- other tank guns have different trajectories and sights, but whatever tank you're in don't fiddle with the sighting keys, simply fire and watch where the round goes. If it misses, aim higher or lower and fire again. Also don't wait to see what effect each hit has had, just keep rapid-firing until the target tank begins to smoulder or catch fire or blows up.Alternatively if you're running short of ammo and the tank looks dead because its stopped firing or moving, you can leave it and move on.

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Poor Old Spike

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Reply with quote  #6 

APCR ROUNDS
Stands for Armour-piercing Composite Round, it's high-density solid tungsten for punching through the heaviest enemy armour and not all tanks carry it. You can switch to it via the menu on the left below if you've got time to reload it, but if an enemy tank appears don't waste precious seconds switching, just fire your default AP.
(Use HE against infantry, guns, vehs, buildings and light armour etc and throw in some MG bursts for good measure by using the F key to keep switching between main gun and MG)



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Joe98

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Reply with quote  #7 
In multiplayer, you can talk to your gunner before you go into action.


You might agree for example that "9" means you want to gunner to point his gun to the left of the vehicle.

This saves having to type a full sentence.

And if the enemy tank is at "10"  then the gunner will see the enemy during the turn.

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Poor Old Spike

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Reply with quote  #8 

Tactical tip- spread your tanks out a bit
Don't get too close like this, because one enemy bomb might take them both out, and also you'll keep bumping into each other when doing evasive manoeuvres in combat.
This pic is from a multiplayer game today, my Panther is in front and the other guy came up in his and is following me cross-country, he couldn't speak english and didn't understand when I kept telling him to spread out..
Later when I engaged the enemy he was still there on my shoulder blocking my field of view and giving me no elbow room for manoeuvring-

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Poor Old Spike

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Reply with quote  #9 
ASSORTED AFV DATA

This is not "need to know" stuff, it's just some test data I put together for interest's sake.
Some notable facts are the Stalin's horrendous reload time of 17 secs, and the Tigers slow turret traverse.
The Stug, SU-85, T-34/85 and Stalin carry only a limited number of AP/APCR shots and might soon run out in a lengthy tank battle.


(Note- AP shots usually have a small explosive charge so that they explode after penetrating the tank.
APCR shots penetrate better than AP because they're solid shots with no explosive charge and are meant for use against the heaviest enemy tanks which AP might not be able to penetrate.
HE has poor penetration against medium and heavy armour but can still hurt tanks by ripping off tracks, stunning the crews, damaging turrets, guns and engines etc, but it's best use is against infantry, light armour, soft vehicles and buildings etc)


A typical in-tank display (this is a Panther).
The gun is loaded with AP, we know this because it's NOT in the list on the left which lists only APCR and HE (highlighted in red). 




This is the Panther's MG display (toggle to it with the 'F' key), but don't try it when you're in a Stug or SU-85, they don't have MG's.
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Poor Old Spike

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Reply with quote  #10 
AWAR team member MikeeCZ just posted this interesting snippet about ballistics etc at the AWAR forum- 

"Iron Front (as well as Iron Clash will) uses realistic ballistic data obtained by Kubinka ballistic tests. They can help you to make clear that Tiger tank got out-dated very fast by superb soviet reaction of mounting 85mm gun on T34s, that gun was a serious threat to badly shaped tiger on even relativelly long distances, say 500mm... with T34 moving cross- country 40km/h, it was within 500m from tiger in such a short period of time ,that tiger managed to shoot its gun 3-4times, considering the luck of hitting and taking out with each hit, the masses of T34s were so overwhelming that most did managed to get into that effective range and take out Tigers with conventional AP rounds, they even did not have to use Wolfram core APCR rounds.

KingTiger was theoretically extremelly well armored on the front side, but germans did not have the resources required to harden their steel for their tanks anymore in time when KTs where produced, so the steel they were made of was soft, easy to penetrate, making it, considering the slope and thickness, an easy target for so advanced guns and rounds KTs enemies used. Iron Front considers all of this and takes it into practise"

http://awar.su/en/forum/questions-and-answers.html
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CAREEREVIL

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Reply with quote  #11 

During World War II, projectiles used highly alloyed steels containing nickel-chromium-molybdenum, although in Germany, this had to be changed to a silicon-manganese-chromium-based alloy when those grades became scarce. The latter alloy, although able to be hardened to the same level, was more brittle and had a tendency to shatter on striking highly sloped armor. The shattered shot lowered penetration, or resulted in total penetration failure; for armor-piercing high-explosive (APHE) projectiles, this could result in premature detonation of the HE filling. Highly advanced and precise methods of differentially hardening the projectile were developed during this period, especially by the German armament industry. The resulting projectiles gradually change from high hardness (low toughness) at the head to high toughness (low hardness) at the rear and were much less likely to fail on impact.

APHE shells for tank guns, although used by most forces of this period, were not used by the British. The only British APHE projectile was the Shell AP, Mk1 for the 2 pdr anti-tank gun and this was dropped as it was found that the fuze tended to separate from the body during penetration. Even when the fuze didn’t separate and the system functioned correctly, damage to the interior was little different from the solid shot, and so did not warrant the additional time and cost of producing a shell version. APHE projectiles of this period used a bursting charge of about 1–3% of the weight of the complete projectile, the filling detonated by a rear mounted delay fuze. The explosive used in APHE projectiles needs to be highly insensitive to shock to prevent premature detonation. The US forces normally used the explosive Explosive D, otherwise known as ammonium picrate, for this purpose. Other combatant forces of the period used various explosives, suitability desensitized (usually by the use of waxes mixed with the explosive).

Due to the increase in armor thickness during the conflict, the projectiles’ impact velocity had to be increased to ensure perforation. At these higher velocities, the hardened tip of the shot or shell has to be protected from the initial impact shock, or risk shattering. To raise the impact velocity and stop the shattering, they were initially fitted with soft steel penetrating caps. The best performance penetrating caps were not very aerodynamic, so an additional ballistic cap was later fitted to reduce drag. The resulting projectile types were named armor-piercing capped (APC) and armor-piercing capped ballistic capped (APCBC).

Early WWII-era uncapped AP projectiles fired from high-velocity guns were able to penetrate about twice their caliber at close range (100 m). At longer ranges (500-1,000 m), this dropped 1.5–1.1 calibers due to the poor ballistic shape and higher drag of the smaller-diameter early projectiles. Later in the conflict, APCBC fired at close range (100 m) from large-caliber, high-velocity guns (75–128 mm) were able to penetrate a much greater thickness of armor in relation to their caliber (2.5 times) and also a greater thickness (2–1.75 times) at longer ranges (1,500–2,000 m).

Tungsten compounds such as tungsten carbide were used in small quantities of inhomogeneous and discarded sabot shot, but that element was in short supply in most places.


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Gunter Severloh

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Reply with quote  #12 
I have a question, in comparison to todays modern tanks compared to the tanks in WW2, maybe late WW2 what do the tanks today use and is it better,
or about as good, and was there some more efficiency in the WW2 tanks over todays, or is there more in todays over what they had back in the day?

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Poor Old Spike

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Reply with quote  #13 
This guy seems to know his stuff- http://drakhl.blogspot.co.uk/2009/03/tank-duel-modern-vs-wwii.html

GUNS- Basically todays hyper velocity sabot-firing guns are far superior to WW2's AP shot.
ARMOR- Likewise todays armor is a superior sandwich of several different materials, whereas WW2 armor was solid steel plate.
Here are some extracts from his article-
"Comparing the modern MBT (main battle tank) and that of a tank from the second world war is similar to comparing the Porsche to the Model T.
Recently I was asked if any WWII gun would be capable of defeating the armor of a MBT, and the answer is no.
Even at point blank range to the flank of a modern tank the rounds would not penetrate, not even the mighty 88mm L71 mounted on the Tiger II tank.
Even spalling damage would not be possible, as the MBTs have built in spall liners for the crew cabin that prevents shrapnel kills from partial penetration.
The only possible penetration would be in very small vulnerable areas like the turret ring, and even that would probably only cause partial penetration if at all.
 A WWII era tank would never even make it to point blank range with a modern MBT. Most likely the modern MBT would spot it first through its series of electronic visual aids, and score a first round kill at extremely long range.
The computerization of modern tanks is simply astounding; the Leopard II tank in particular has a fully integrated virtual map of the world outside the tank that it uses to coordinate with other members of its platoon and to mark enemy targets."

PS- I looked up fuel consumption on the net and came up with-
Tiger= 2.75 gallons per mile
M1A1 Abrams= half a gallon per mile,
so it seems modern engines are very fuel-efficient.

Abrams 120mm sabot round
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Gunter Severloh

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Reply with quote  #14 
Interesting article Spike, pretty amazing whats been done over the years.
Tanks have seriously evolved since WW2. I was taken by what the guy said:
Quote:
In modern tanks we have seen the effective armour value rise to enormous levels that would have left a WWII tank stuck in the mud. The M1A2 Abrams has effective armour values of over 900mm on the turret and 600 on the hull against kinetic energy penetrations, and over 1200 against HEAT(high explosive anti-tank) rounds. The Russian T-80 has anywhere from 280-800mm of effective armour on the turret, and 750 on the glacis of the hull. Compare this to the Russian T-34 which was put into service in 1941, which had only about 90mm of effective armour.

Also what was said here
Quote:
The newer sabot rounds fired by the M1A2 can penetrate over 600mm of armour at 2,000 meters.


But seriously as an example as you can see here:
http://www.alanhamby.com/technical.shtml
the Tiger 1 had Hull armor thickness of 100mm

heres a question regarding WW2 tanks, lookign at the Tiger 1 here on this page it says
For muzzlevelocity for a given shell:
600m/second (HE)
773m/second (AP)
930m/second (AP/tungsten core)


is the Ap shell heavier then HE, and a Tungsten core heavier then normal AP shell, does that add to how fast it flies when shot?


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Poor Old Spike

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Reply with quote  #15 
TANK GUNSIGHTS and RANGING
Let me make it clear right from the start that I use my eyeball at all times and NEVER bother trying to fiddle with the "sights adjustment" keys (Pgup and Pgdn).
(I dabbled with them once but they didn't seem to have much effect so i gave up on them and don't need them anyway)
This tutorial shows you where you must lay your sights to get a hit firing standard AP-shot.
(note- APCR shot and HE shot have different trajectories and I haven't logged them, but basically APCR flies faster and flatter, so you usually don't need to aim so high as for AP. But HE flies slower so you usually need to lift the sights more than for AP)    
 
Most tank sights have different scales and magnification. For each test I fired multiple times to observe the trajectories and videoed them all with FRAPS, screenshotting the clearest frames through the smoke.
(And apart from smoke, the definition also suffers slightly when screenshotting frames from vids, sorry about that) 
 
Let's start with the Kingtiger
At up to around 400m you can lay the sights smack on the target (left inset)
and you'll get a hit (right inset)



But as the range increases like here at 700m, you have to fire above the target to get a hit-
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