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***=Major Mayhem=***

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Reply with quote  #16 

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Probably my English is worse, I thought. I do not argue, so Hitler and Nazis not used Christian symbols and rethoric to justify their crimes, because they obviously did that.

Read again, what I wrote, if something isn't understandable - say me, I'll try to rephrase. 




No Worries my friend,  I would like to continue this discussion without offending anyone.

~S~

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Rydygier

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Reply with quote  #17 
Thanks, no problem, I fully respect seeking for the truth without worrying about any "political correctness" or ideology limits. Truth is always a noble goal. Just if you are saying, so Catholic faith is founded on hatred, then it's offending, because not true and unconscionable. It's founded on the opposition, on the love, this may be checked in any Christian Catechism and so no further offtopic discusion needed. 

How was looking practicing Christianity faith by particular Christians or to what purpose Christaninty was used eg by Nazis is another matter.  That much I wanted to stress. In the name of the same truth. 
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***=Major Mayhem=***

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Reply with quote  #18 
In our search for truth

A very interesting

Thesis "

also
Understanding Fascism

Understanding Fascism II


~Salute~

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Rydygier

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Reply with quote  #19 
Back to the topic...

I'll expand a bit my previous post:

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 I would suggest to focus on the German mentality elements combined with humiliantion and other consequences of Versailles Treaty, about which Marshal Ferdinand Foch said "This isn't a peace, it's a twenty year truce!". 


As some said (eg Henry Kissinger in "Diplomacy"), WWII was started, because WWI was never properly ended. There is no chance for true peace withouth true reconciliation. And there wasn't such after WWI (WWII wasn't appear in historical/political vacuum, there was certain context of the past, that for better understanding may be studied, especially reasons of WWI, nationalism, imperialism, ethinc tensions etc.). Germany was forced to give up part of the terrirory to reborn Poland, annexed more than one century earlier by three neighbours. Germany was forced to accept humiliating terms. There was no relaxation after WWI, in fact many new tensions appeared. And Germans wanted "their" territories back. Lots of frustration. No wonder, they followed Hitler so easily and no wonder, person as Hitler appeared. IMO, if not him, someone else sooner or later would lead world towards next slaughter, even if not so ideologically cruel and inhuman, especially with such passive "Appeasement" approach of France and England (basically allowing Germany to take back, what was taken in Versailles), popularity of extremist factions across the globe with lots of imperial ambitions (Italy, Japan, USSR...). But most probably Stalin, in the second attempt to spread Communism towards Atlantic (first attempt was repelled by Poland in 1920 thanks to the victory in the key battle at Warsaw), and hard to tell, if that would be any better, Stalin apparently was much more effective mass murderer. Situation was very unstable and, indeed, full of hatred and injust.
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Gunter Severloh

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Reply with quote  #20 
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they followed Hitler so easily

Well in a way he did a good thing at the start, Germany at the time was in a major depression, more people out of work and unemployed,
probably worse then USA's great Depression in the 30's (same time roughly) but from watching the documentary that Major Mayhem posted in post #5 pg.1 The Rise,
the German people were saved and had a new hope, Hitler did good for them, and they worshiped him for it, good for the time before the war part started and even
after to an extent, not trying to defend him so much but theres good and bad to these dictators from those eras.

I find it just to be alike a dream about WW2, I mean I cannot fathom what people's thought like, conducted themselves, how society was, the cultures,
the languages, the style of their clothes, their vehicles, their music, what they ate, and the war aspect, why WW2 fascinates me, but compared to today's wars,
i find WW2 the way they dressed as in their uniforms, and more specifically the Germans, i find them to have had alot of class
(guess would be the appropriate word) for what they fought with and wore.

There was a lot of pride in a soldier's country it seems from those that had it for all the nations involved in the war, the same feeling I get when I watch these documentaries I feel like that kid in the toy store seeing something new and amazing, just watching and learing about what was done and who was involved even down to the civilians just makes me say wow, amazing what it was like to live then.
then i ask my grandparents whom are Dutch and their still alive today [wink] in the mid/late 80's btw and they were in Holland during the start of WW2, adn the sh*t they told me when i was a kid and the photos made me sh*t myself, i think I became a fan (if thats appropriate) of WW2 from that day on.

Again it boggles my mind the battles and what these people, soldiers and such experienced, I mean look at the Finnish front for example, heres a clip from Talvisota:

Could you fathom seeing with your own eyes a massive horde of soldiers coming at you like this.

I remember reading the book I own titled Blood Red Snow the author was a German WW2 MG42 gunner on the Russian Front the soldier's
name was Gunter K. Koschorrek, (where I got my first name btw [wink] in the book he had experienced a situation where the Russians swarmed at
and attacked the village German's occupied and he says from personal account that with his mg42 he shot into this mass which created a hole
that filled in  and kept on coming. After reading that I was flabbergasted at the sheer insanity of that, even other things
about stuff in detail he was talking about, getting wounded 6-7 times.

Its utterly amazing what humans have experienced and lived through, I dont think I can fathom such chaos from sitting behind a computer safe, warm,
with food, and doing as I wish to truly respect such things.

How does everyone else feel about some of the things in WW2?
What in your study of WW2 has moved you?


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Rydygier

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Reply with quote  #21 
My fascination (Hmm. Disturbing word here, if one divide it for two) of WW2, especially earlier in the youth revolved mostly around warfare art (operational/tactical). These aspects was/stay fascinating to me, perhaps especially for WW2, because it was a time, where modern warfare technology was mastering, still imperfect enough to make struggles flow something positioned perfectly inbetween technical advantage and tactics. That period in history of wars seems especially charming in some intelectual way as period of deep transformation of warfare binding somehow old mentality with revolutionary weaponry. Later technical advance forced less intriguing tactics, while pre-war mentality about the war was one of the victims of both world wars, wounded by first and finished off by the second.  

So yeah, we, who doesn't experienced a war, may be attracted by it in many different ways. But do not kid yourself. That attractive war is only our mental, false construct built on some extracted aspects or romantic fantasy about bravery, "class" or anything like that. But that's not a whole picture nor crucial part of it. That's marginal matters. My grandparents experienced war. I think, they was stigmatized by it's touch for whole life. The truth about any war, it's core isn't attractive at all. It's horrible and terrifying. It's an orgy of hatred, brutality, bloodshed, killing and violence, festival of horrors of the worst side of human nature; madness devastating psyche of all involved. Experienced by all this would probably never enjoy war movies nor war games. Would not understand, how anyone could enjoy recreating a war. So, how it was to live then? I think, for countries involved directly, it was several years of fear and horror, a nightmare, that I would not wish anyone and, luckilly, can't really imagine to feel the same.
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Foxsch

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Reply with quote  #22 
Rydygier has made some good points here. I wouldn't want to comment on the historical aspects of anti-semitism, they are relevant to the discussion, but my view is that such a sentiment, beyond condemnation, is incomprehensible. Much like all forms of racism (is that a correct correlation?), I just do not understand. So I tend to steer clear of discussions that involve these terms. They have become such all-encompassing terms that they no longer have any meaning for me.
I am pleased that this discussion is branching out, I have often puzzled over my own fascination with all things WWII.
It has stayed with me from some of my earliest memories.
As pointed out; war is brutal, horrific and violent (and I would suggest retrogressive for humankind - but I do not want to extend the discussion in this direction), and so I questioned my own interest. A changing point came about when reading about the human mind; how or why people develop as they do, to form interests, likes, dislikes and so forth.

This led me to read about past-life therapies - regression designed to cure phobia's or obsessions. Open to the quasi-spiritual or supernatural aspects of life (if you will), I began to believe that this might be a rationale for a very ardent, and obviously permanent fascination with the period. I still do.
It maybe that this is a false assumption, but to be honest holding this belief at least stops me wondering about the 'why's' of fascination and allows me to get on with enjoying it. But there again we return to the points raised, I enjoy being immersed in WWII ephemera. I have worked in military-themed museums and can comment on the popularity this has with vast numbers of people, so the discussion has great validity.

People must arrive at their interests for their own reasons, and I have had to settle for mine. My parents both lived through WWII, although they were too young to have fought. Whilst other close relatives, and grand-relatives, did see active service. I had little opportunity to discuss their experiences with them, and I do know that they would not have appreciated my trying, so I have discounted the often cited familial or parental influence aspect, I know that this is not relevant to my experience. What does still intrigue me is something akin to the concept (sic) of art.
Military art is a vast arena, I conclude I am not alone, but it is still a little strange for me to suggest, even to myself,
that I find WWII ephemera (reaches for the thesaurus) 'beguiling'(?).

Admin edit...please use proper English paragraphing one block of text is an eye sore.
Takes a milsec to hit the enter button.

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Foxsch

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Reply with quote  #23 
*Just to put a ring around some of my waffle, if anybody can concur that what I weakly described as an ambience ('beguiling') for the WWII period, could, like me, describe this as a sense of 'familiarity', rather than a form of 'attraction', then maybe it would be worth reading up on the past-life stuff. That was what led me along, the WWII period does just seem very familiar to me!
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