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Shrck

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Reply with quote  #1 
I'm opening a very contentious question, but its imortant to hear your oppinion.

Since I started play IF and I44 I discovered a significant number of groups/clans/units who call themself SS divisions. First, second, tenth, infantery, panzer...
Btw, more then half of groups representing German forces in I44 is SS. Despite historically SS had only a small part into all forces (about 400000 SS, more then 10 millions Wehrmacht).

Next I discovered was a neutral or even friendly attitude to this groups from the western game community. People told me this groups not spreading any bad ideology, the members of this groups are only have "passion to history".

I suppose it's quite understandable then people who love history taking the name(number) for his squad from the real unit. But lets remind some facts about SS and SS divisions:
...the Waffen-SS was condemned as a criminal organization due to its essential connection to the Nazi Party and involvement in numerous war crimes. 
I hope you don't need me to bring here all list of crimes, murders, but in case you never heard about it read at least this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS
Soldiers of SS divisions responsible for thousands murders of innocent people. Prisoners, women, childs.

For me, when somebody call his unit "SS" he's already crossing the line. He's or a kid, who don't understand what is he doing, or he's deep (or not so deep) in soul support nazi.
You are not agree? You tell me them are not supporting nazism? I expected that. Lets go further.

Resently I was invited to the "36th Waffen-SS Grenadier Division" steam group. Of course I did not join and told this guy who I think he is. After reading the wiki article about this 36th division I discovered - thats was the most criminal unit between all SS criminals! Of course mass murders of civilians, "...burned women and children alive and let the starved packs of dogs feed on them". (but thats was on the East front, mostly in USSR, so western people shouldnt care [wink])
Really, you should read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS
Only "best of the bests": killers, rapist, and so on. Glorious soldiers.

Next, I took a breif look into this steam group members profiles. Want to follow me? 
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Scharfurschutze - this nice guy from New Jersey with swastcas
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198028076296 - UK is a new Reich?
http://steamcommunity.com/id/ForTheLocustHorde - he just change his name from "ϟϟ Baltik ϟϟ"
http://steamcommunity.com/id/legowonderboy - the close friend of the unit
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198045626139 - go nazi!
and so on and so on. But, of course, that for sure just a "passion to history". No one should worry.

Do you care? Fell fine playing with SS divisions?

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Santa Six

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Reply with quote  #2 
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

-Alfred Pennyworth

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vintorez

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Reply with quote  #3 
Good, that you wrote what you think. Maybe this is not the right place to post this, but I totally agree with you. Their fascination explains only their... age. They are just kids, who have poor knowledge of what happened over 60 years ago. I don't want to write here morals, but evil was on each side. First, the Nazis carried out the crime, then the Allies and the Russians did the same. War is not a game! War brings out what is the darkest in the soul of man. The only thing we have to do is remember this, and not make it again.
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rowdied

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Reply with quote  #4 
"Soldiers of SS divisions responsible for thousands murders of innocent people. Prisoners, women, childs."

"the Waffen-SS was condemned as a criminal organization due to its essential connection to the Nazi Party and involvement in numerous war crimes. 
I hope you don't need me to bring here all list of crimes, murders, but in case you never heard about it read at least."

So... do you agree then that all the members of the US and UK bomber forces are criminals as well? Because they murdered innocent women and children as well and have never had to stand trial for their crimes, but instead are treated like heroes.

Both sides committed atrocities and this always happens in all out war, but lets not forget, the victor writes the history!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenogne_massacre

The people choose those units because they were usually the best of the best and everyone wants to be the best. Logical of course and yet some idolize them for other reasons. Why? Because we as a species DO NOT LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES!!!!!

Sad but true, just look at world events to see this is so.

And lets leave it at that! WAR IS HELL AND HAS NO VICTORS BUT ALL LOSERS!



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CAREEREVIL

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Reply with quote  #5 
your all right i watched & read stuff about ww2 from all side
that made me think what the hejj am i playing a game that killed so many
that never wanted this war.
to bad ppl get brainwashed so easy
and ur right its just a name.
im not a nazi or evil
and a have a name like this.
dont let them get you down
there is more good guys playing
ifl44 then bad.
they don't scar me
CAREEREVIL


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Shrck

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintorez
Their fascination explains only their... age. They are just kids, who have poor knowledge of what happened over 60 years ago.

But, what if they are not a kids? And they do it quite meaningly? Would you deal with them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vintorez
First, the Nazis carried out the crime, then the Allies and the Russians did the same. War is not a game! War brings out what is the darkest in the soul of man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rowdied
 So... do you agree then that all the members of the US and UK bomber forces are criminals as well? Because they murdered innocent women and children as well and have never had to stand trial for their crimes, but instead are treated like heroes. 
Both sides committed atrocities and this always happens in all out war, but lets not forget, the victor writes the history!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenogne_massacre

Not agree. Its a comfortable position to show SS like a just soldiers and say "enemies did the same". Probably you don't want to see what SS was. Do you ever questioned why SS was condemned as a criminal organization, but wehrmacht not?
SS was an ideological forces, and they did eliminated civilian people, did crimes becouse thats what they were for. Allies, and Soviets, and the German army waged a war and did killed civilians too, but how you can compare this? Do you know any war without the civilian deaths? Does that makes all armies and all soldiers criminals?

Chenogne massacre and other examples of crimes from the all sides its a shame. But its not a reason to tell "they did the same"! SS was a system for civilians murders unlike the Allies or Soviet units.
Do not compare few isolated instances and the system, for the "final solution", particularly.

I agree the most important is to not forget what happend and learn from our mistakes.

But my question is about the people who bring this SS and other nazi symbols back. I suspect they are deep into soul don't belive nazism is something awful. And thats why they pick SS divisions instead of any other. I'm strongly against any of this sh_t in the IF game community. I despise nazi ideology and people who reviving or glorifying nazi.

Of cousre is up to you - deal, speak, play, be friends this them or not. Or even be one of them. But at least you can give me your fair answer. Do you care or do you not.



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vintorez

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Reply with quote  #7 

I‘m against dissemination and identification with the Nazi ideology and wear, use Nazi symbols in everyday life. But at the same time, IN GAME, I would like to play characters as realistic as possible, which correspond to the times they refer to, with military decorations and symbols specific to fractions. But as I wrote: only in the game.

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rowdied

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Reply with quote  #8 
Not all SS members believed in that ideology either, and also, not all of them committed the atrocities as per your wiki link.

the Waffen-SS was condemned as a criminal organization due to its essential connection to the Nazi Party and involvement in numerous war crimes. Waffen-SS veterans were denied many of the rights afforded to veterans who had served in the Heer (army), Luftwaffe (air force), or Kriegsmarine (navy). An exception was made for Waffen-SS conscripts sworn in after 1943, who were exempted because of their involuntary servitude.

Different times and different ideiologies existed back then than exist nowadays. thank the internet for helping people of all backgrounds come closer together regardless of race color and religion.

But you asked the question care or not? I care not, sorry. It is your prerogative if you choose to play as an SS officer because you think its cool or you play it because you believe in their ideology and are a racist. I have other worries in life than whether the guy I play with is a racist or not. Sad? probably, but true none the less. Maybe when I was younger it would bother me much more but nowadays not so much.

What country are you from Shrck and how old are you if you don't mind me asking?
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Santa Six

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Reply with quote  #9 
As long as it's used solly for roleplay. I don't understand why every group goes for high classed German divisions (they lost). They always choose ground infantry too.
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CAREEREVIL

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Posts: 139
Reply with quote  #10 
its a free world
what next, do we stop black's and gay's
we start telling what guy's can say in there profiles
we start looking like nazi
if a guy is racist he the dummy or is that sheep?
(sorry i said black's & gay's
) its just to make a point!
iam for a full realistic game!!
CAREEREVIL



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Gunter Severloh

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Reply with quote  #11 
When I played Red Orchestra all the time, i lead a unit, and my unit represented the 3rd panzer Grenadiers.
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Shrck

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rowdied
thank the internet for helping people of all backgrounds come closer together regardless of race color and religion.

And thank nazi ideology (still alive in some minds) for helping people make the opposite - hate someone just becouse of nationality, race, color or religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rowdied
I have other worries in life than whether the guy I play with is a racist or not. Sad? probably, but true none the less. 
...
What country are you from Shrck and how old are you if you don't mind me asking?

Yes, it's sad. Thank you for honest answer.
I'm from Russia. Old enough to worry about what happening around.

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Shrck

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAREEREVIL
its a free world
what next, do we stop black's and gay's
we start telling what guy's can say in there profiles
we start looking like nazi
if a guy is racist he the dummy or is that sheep?
(sorry i said black's & gay's
) its just to make a point!
iam for a full realistic game!!

ha ha [biggrin] you make me laugh! Do you understand what are you wrote?
"Forbid nazi to spread ideology and show their symbols on public? What next? We start looking like nazi!" [rofl] [thumb] brilliant.
Sorry for say that, but you are in your West really mess up something or prefer to close your eyes on some stuff.  It could be not so free world if the Europe had not liberated from fashists. 

btw, western media probably telling you Russia persecute gay's. The truth is it's forbiden to spread gay's culture, particulary for kids. Gays can freely f_ck themselfs in the own toilet. The same with the nazi.


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CAREEREVIL

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Posts: 139
Reply with quote  #14 
you are racist your self
fk up sob
watch new see what Russia is doing
the
nazi did same thing to start ww2
go fk urself azz hole
CAREEREVIL



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BRS

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Reply with quote  #15 
Heya 'friends'!
Could you please stop this.
It will not end in a good way, it never does inside such discussions.
Use your power and create some stuff for this game, would be much better [smile]

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